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Author Topic: Two Words and A Comma... And then what?  (Read 2438 times)
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The Honorable Casual Observer JP, MP, PITA
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« on: October 26, 2009, 01:19:40 PM »

I have always supported amending the current Human Rights Act to include the inclusion of "sexual orientation" simply because it seems wrong to discriminate against an individual on the basis of their personal choice. Then, a recent conversation got me thinking even further on this important issue. My friend, a traditionalist for lack of a better word, with strong religious convictions on the subject indicated that they could not support the changes to the legislation because as a homeowner, they felt that it was their right not to rent their apartment to an individual with an alternative lifestyle, particularly when trying to bring up their children with certain moral values...

And it really drove home the point to me as to why so many do oppose the legislation and also why our politicians are loathe to touch it with a ten foot roll of toilet paper.

And I gotta tell you that I do support my friends view...

Thoughts?
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« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2009, 01:24:14 PM »



So... are you saying that homosexuality is immoral....?  I always thought that it was normal for a certain percentage of the population to lean that way....

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« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2009, 01:31:07 PM »

@ M ... I am saying that there is a significant percentage of the population that views it as a lifestyle choice - unlike race, gender, etc, which are currently protected under the HRA.

It's also 'normal' for a certain percentage of the population to cheat on their spouses as well... immoral? genetic?
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« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2009, 01:33:03 PM »

More the "just not in my backyard" approach....

CO - there are other laws that protect landlords from renting to all sorts of people if they are breaking the law. If the concern is that two people of the same sex are living together but not breaking any laws then that's just part of today's norms. If the concern is you don't want your kids to see it going on so you refuse to rent to them what happens when they just rent the house next door instead? The issue's still there.

In this day and age you can find yourself ending up renting to some god fearing, church going guy who just happens to beat his wife and kids. And the only people who stand up to him are the two gay guys living next door...
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« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2009, 01:33:45 PM »

I think the question is: IS it a personal choice? I don't think it is...
As for the "Moral Question", would it be ok to refuse to rent to divorcees? Would it be ok to ask if a woman has had an abortion and, if yes, refuse to rent to them?
Hell, what about unmarried couples? It's "immoral" for them to be having sex, isn't it? Is that a lesson we want kids to learn?
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« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2009, 01:37:28 PM »

Quote
an alternative lifestyle, particularly when trying to bring up their children with certain moral values...

Maybe we can arrange an introduction to that civil servant in Mississippi or Louisiana or where-ever he was from that didn't want to marry that interracial couple because he believed their "alternative lifestyle" would be difficult on the children.

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« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2009, 01:49:14 PM »



I can guarantee that homosexuality is NOT a lifestyle choice.   No-No

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« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2009, 01:50:10 PM »

Good topic. Wonder if a lot of it comes down to what each person feels is morally right or wrong?

Some people may find other religions immoral, for instance. And Uncle Elvis took it another step further with highlighting unmarried couples. We still have people who get looks of complete disgust when they see a black woman and white man holding hands around here (and that guy that BeachBunny mentioned would probably agree).
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« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2009, 02:18:32 PM »

@ UE - Actually believe it or not there are a number of individuals out there who will not rent to an unmarried couple, for various reasons. Is it discriminatory? Yes. But are they entitled to rent to whomever they want to rent THEIR HOUSE to?

@ SG - There is a distinct difference between YOU renting your apartment to a gay couple and the gay couple renting the house next door. I'm not responsible for my neighbours moral leanings, and nor are my neighbours responsible for my childrens views... me renting to the couple would in some ways be condoning their lifestyle choice and sending the message to my children that it's okay

I think in a lot of ways it IS up to us on what we want our children to learn. We can teach them tolerance, but there is a difference between tolerating and condoning.
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« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2009, 02:24:25 PM »

PS. I look at the introduction of Sybil Barrington into the Bermuda Day parade... I think a lot of people tolerate it, but do not condone it. I distinctly remember in the section where I was sitting, there was dead silence when he came through. I was put in an uncomfortable position when my 4 year old asked whether that was a man or a woman, and if it was a man, why was he wearing a dress? Now I will teach my child tolerance, but at the same time I do not personally condone a man dressing up as a woman and am not prepared to teach them that that is normal.

But that's the thing about social norms... they are in a constant state of evolution...
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« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2009, 02:25:34 PM »

Being Gay: A Life Style Choice??

Allan N. Schwartz, LCSW, Ph.D.

The Religious View

The question of what causes some people to be gay has been a topic of endless debate among the general public and the mental health community. Generally speaking, the religious community of every persuasion views homosexuality as an abhorrent sin against God and nature. Deeply religious groups among Muslims, Christians, Catholics and Jews reject homosexuality as totally unacceptable in the eyes of God. Therefore, most orthodox religious leaders view it as a life style choice thereby condemning the homosexual to eternal hell.

The American Psychiatric Association


The American Psychiatric Association, the organization that writes and publishes the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, with the cooperation of professionals from psychology and social work professions, listed homosexuality as a mental disorder until the 1970's. Based on increasing amounts of research the APA decided to drop homosexuality as a diagnostic category. They found that as long as gay people adapted well to their sexual orientation and were able to function in society, there was no reason for them to be placed in the category of having a mental illness. Therefore, when gay people seek psychiatric counseling there is no reason to attempt to counsel them to change their sexual orientation. In other words, there is no reason why a gay person should not be considered normal.

However, the question remained as to what causes homosexuality?

The fact is that little is know about why some people become gay and others do not. Here are some of the major areas of study on this issue:

Genetic Research

During the 1990's evidence was found that a gene could be the root cause of homosexuality. It was thought that the X chromosome, which is passed from the mother to the son, carried the variability that accounted for becoming gay. More recently, both the X and Y chromosomes have been investigated to determine the causes of homosexuality. The Y chromosome is passed from the father to the son and it is this Y chromosome that determined the sex of the baby. All of these studies have been successful to the extent that they have found genetic factors to be the cause of homosexuality in fifty to sixty percent of the populations studied.

Biological Research


Along with the study of genes and chromosomes the environment in the womb of the mother, as well as other prenatal factors, have been studied to understand how it can affect sexual orientation. A very recent study found that mothers who had given birth to several male children are more likely to have a son born who will be gay. It is thought that something happened in the mother’s uterus after she delivered her older children that altered the fetus of the last child in a way that makes him gay. It is speculated that hormonal changes occur in utero resulting in the brains of the individuals who become gay being affected in ways that are as yet unknown.

The Environment


There is a long list of researchers who have speculated for many years that the environment, as represented by the family and the home, are the key determiners of homosexuality. Sigmund Freud wrote that the child, fearful of his father wrath, identifies with his mother and, unconsciously takes his father (or men in general) as the object of their sexual love. This is a variation of his controversial Oedipal Conflict which has largely been rejected in the mental health community.

Other and more recent writers have discussed sexual abuse in the home or neighborhood at the hands of relatives and or friends and neighbors. Then, too, there is the issue of poverty and its impact on human development and adjustment in every key area of functioning.

My Psychotherapeutic Experience


It has been my good fortune to have worked with a few psychologists, social workers and psychiatrists who are gay. These are healthy and well adjusted people who are excellent practitioners in the fields of medicine and mental health. In addition, I have had the experience of treating many gay men during my long years as a psychotherapist. These are people who sought treatment for depression and anxiety and, in a few cases, for personality disorders. In all cases, these were hard working, law-abiding and extremely successful people who were well-adjusted to the fact that they are gay.

Among this sample of men I have known as professional colleagues and as patients in my practice, none ever reported making a choice to live a gay life style. Quite to the contrary, most gay men reported experiencing the usual childhood sexual urgings but towards boys rather than girls. In a few cases, the dawning of awareness of sexual preference did not begin until adolescence. Some of these men made efforts to be heterosexual, dating girls and attempting sexual intercourse with females. In most cases they reported feeling no sense of satisfaction from sexual intercourse and realized they really were gay. In other cases, there was the complete inability to function heterosexually but no difficulty functioning homosexually. However, most of these people liked having women as friends but never made any effort to perform heterosexually because they had no desire to do so.

In all cases, these men reported the fact that they accepted their homosexuality, had many friends, some had permanent intimate partners and had no wish to become heterosexual. However, everyone agreed that it would be a lot easier to live in the world if they were heterosexual beings. The reason for believing it would be easier to be heterosexual is that gay people must cope with a lot of hostility and prejudice.

Conclusion


As a result of everything I have read, learned and experienced as a mental health worker, I long ago concluded that homosexuality is not a matter of choice. Instead, it seems quite clear to me that there is a combination of genetic and biological factors that cause people to become gay. Choice and willfulness have nothing to do with who does and does not become homosexual. Those who are gay have no more choice over their sexual preferences than those who are heterosexual.


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« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2009, 02:32:41 PM »

CO - of course there is a distinct difference. All I'm saying is we now live in a society where we have to start accepting that we cannot have one set of rules for one segment of society and another for another. We are facing the exact same situation that many of our forefathers were persecuted for. I'm not saying you do not have a right to be concerned after all you have the right to your own religious beliefs etc. but when does it get to the point that we stop repeating the mistakes of the past?

I happen to know a few gay couples and although their lifestyle doesn't interest me I'd never have an issue renting to them. They are good parents and their kids are totally as goofy as the rest of my friends kids.
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« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2009, 02:33:10 PM »

I don't think they're allowed to, under the HR thing. I could be wrong, but I think there's an argument against it.
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« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2009, 02:36:10 PM »

According to the PLP Government the gay population is already covered so UE you would be correct. They cannot discriminate against gay renters.
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« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2009, 02:41:32 PM »

@ M - It has also been found that there is some genetic link in drug addicts and paedophiles...  Devil

@ SG - So where does the line get drawn? On the basis that we cannot have different sets of rules for different segments of the community, would I be in the wrong if I do not rent my apartment to a gentleman on the basis that he is a rumoured paedophile?
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